106 replies to this topic

[groomlake]

shyama, on Jun 6 2006, 02:26 PM, said:

Intriguing discussion Ammini and Groomlake!

Thanks, Shyama! all because of Ammini!

If you're interested, here's an excellent map. The beauty of this map, I feel, is in its depiction of small villages, which I'm quite sure you'd not find in any commercial map. The other beauty is that it's dated 1959, and the sheer nostalgia! My mom and dad, especially, find this map interesting. For e.g. Ammini, if I say this map shows not only Chittur, but a place 'Paalayangad' as well, how would you react?  

The map ranges along the Malabar coast from Edappaly/Parur in the south-west, to north-west of Ponnaani, and to Coimbatore town in the North east to the Devikulam road in the dense Malayattur state forest of the erstwhile Cochin-Travancore state. As a bonus, Ammini, you can clearly see that Chittur was a separate 'piece' of Cochin, entirely within Madras state, clearly demarkated by a border(that runs between Chittur and Paalayangad.

I do hope, for the sake of surprise, that this map has not been viewed elsewhere before!

Just a Thumbnail! Don't click----->:  

It's a 2.2MB file, so be forewarned! Download Map: Southern Malabar+Trichur+Coimbatore

Enjoy!

Groomlake

Edited by groomlake, 06 June 2006 - 07:53 PM.

[shyama]

Oooooh! Thanks GM! Am downloading!

[Ammini]

That you mentioned it, Koodalmanikyam Sri Bharathan temple was supposed to be a Buddhist Shrine. In fact, many suggest that the circular temple shapes are essentially a Buddhist design. I've heard another theory about Kodungalloor temple; in that it's was, even before the Buddhist/Jain era, a megalithic structure, containing burial chambers, etc. What do you think about the Kannagi legend? Is the legend true? Is Kodungalloor really the burial place of Kannagi

History of Kodungalloor, and the temple are indeed fascinating. This is the only temple where I have seen  black pepper as an offering. May be a custom from the good old days of flourishing maritime trade. Another temple I find very intriguing is the Vamana temple at Trikkakkara. There a lot of vattezuthu inscriptions around the sopanam. The architecture is very much like Buddhist shrines.  

It may well be that the Kodungallur temple was once a Buddhist or Jain shrine which later yielded to Hindu influence. The original Kodungallor temple is said have been built by a Chera king as a memorial to Kannaki at the Chera capital Vanji, present-day Kodungallur. Kannaki followed the Buddhist tradition. Chera prince Ilamko Adigal who wrote the classic Silapathikaram, was believed to be a Jain. Geographically too, the location of Madurai and Kodungallor appear logical. Kannaki just had to cross over the western ghats to reach Chrea territory   

An intriguing architectural feature of the Kodungallur temple is the existence of a sealed underground vault. Scholars have speculated that the granite vault may be a megalith or a burial chamber, possibly containing the mortal remains of Kannaki. Until the breaking of its sealed walls for research purposes, this puzzle will never be solved.

Several temples between Guruvayoor and Ernakulam are believed to be originally Buddhist/Jain shrines. Trikkanamathilakam was once a center of Buddhists and Jains. I have read (just can't remember in which book) that when Hinduism was gaining a stronger presence in Kerala (I guess during Sankaraacharya's time) the Hindu scholars defeated Buddhist scholars in a debate and forced them to leave their temples. In fact some of the events at Kodungalloor temple during Bharani festival may well indicate that. For instance, the custom of singing profane songs is the practice at Kavu Theendal. And during this desecration ceremony they are said to run around the temple beating the copper roof of the shrine with bamboo sticks. I wonder was this the way the Hindus drove away the defeated Buddhists/Jains?

When Hindus overthrew the Buddhists and Jains, Trikkanamathilakam became a center of Hinduism. Sukasandesa, the earliest sandesa kaavya from Kerala belonging to the latter half of the 13th century, mentions a Siva temple called Trikkanamathilakam in "a city known throughout the world”. On the western side of the temple was a tank called chempalikulam and the Chrea Perumals held their vidual sabha (assembly of wise to enact laws) in the upper hall of the tank shed of cempalikulam. Trikkanaamathilakam was in the past a centre of learning, though there are no relics at present to remind us of its ancient glory. Today most of the inhabitants of Mathilakam are Muslims. There is a Siva temple at Mathilakam and I hope to go there some time.

The Siva temple at Trikkanaathilakam (Kunavayil Kottam of ancient Tamil writings) was a powerful one; even Guruvayoor and Koodalmaanikkam were keezedams of this temple (This keezedam issue came up during an ashtamangalya prasnam at Guruvayoor) Conflicts among the Uralers, Thekkedath and Vadakkedath Nairs led to the decline of the temple and later it went into the hands of the Dutch. The Dutch totally destroyed Trikkanamathilakam. The Dutch removed the 18 feet tall Siva lingam along with other relics of the temple to Fort Cochin, their headquarters. They used the lingam as mooring on the seashore for carrying cargo to ships. The Dutch surrendered to the British at Cochin in 1795. The Gowda Saraswatha Brahmins (Konkanis) of Cochin bought the idol from the British East India Company and constructed a temple in the centre of an existing garden. - The Udyaneswara Temple popularly known as Shivakshethram to the north east of  Thirumala Devaswom temple tank. Unlike other Siva temples, Lord Udyaneswara is facing west as if looking at the Atabian Sea. Was it similar at the original Trikkanamathilakam temple? I don't know. I wonder whether this was a common practice at temples erected by Chera kings. At the temple at Palani, (built by a Chera king) also the lord Murugan faces the west - the ithihyam is that the Chra king wanted Muruga to face towards his kingdom.

I feel, at a date later than that of the Dravdians, the more dominant Brahminic comminities started settling into Kerala, and brought with them legends from their own original stations, and adapted them to local conditions.Couldn't agree with you more. What other explanation is there? How can all those events you mentioned may have taken place in our little state?
But I find history fascinating. Yes! Especially so, for me the central Kerala region!
A topic I am most interested in
Malamakkaav is the name of a village along the southern side of the Nila and has an interesting temple nearbyThank you for the update.
Your video record would be a valuable asset indeed! Especially if you could put subtitles! Sorry, I'm asking too much...Adding sub titles- you must be kidding. I have copied it on to a CD, but adding subtitles is beyond me

Thanks so much for the link to the map.

Edited by Ammini, 07 June 2006 - 02:16 AM.

[arnab]

is this the most substantive thread ever on another subcontinent? it certainly looks like--i haven't read any of it yet, saving it for a rainy day.

[groomlake]

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The History of Kodungalloor, and the temple are indeed fascinating. This is the only temple where I have seen  black pepper as an offering. May be a custom from the good old days of flourishing maritime trade.

yes, Indeed. I wonder whether any archaeological findings have been presented that throws new light on the maritime importance of Vanji. But the area itself has a dynamic topography indeed- the unpredictable river, sea currents, I believe all helped bring an end to the importance of Vanji. But would appreciate your input on real location of Vanji. I can only imagine the archaeological treasures hidden beneath the silt!

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Another temple I find very intriguing is the Vamana temple at Trikkakkara. There a lot of vattezuthu inscriptions around the sopanam. The architecture is very much like Buddhist shrines.  

Never been there, but I've also seen vattezhuthu at the base of Siva temple at Kilikurushimangalam, the birthplace of Kunjan Nambiar, near Lakkidi. This temple is an ancient one indeed- worth visiting!

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Geographically too, the location of Madurai and Kodungallor appear logical. Kannaki just had to cross over the western ghats to reach Chera territory   

yet it was not an easy task, I think, despite the established trade routes available at that time, the crossings would have been a hazardous trek indeed. But, it always helps having Kannagi as company- No Fear!    

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An intriguing architectural feature of the Kodungallur temple is the existence of a sealed underground vault. Scholars have speculated that the granite vault may be a megalith or a burial chamber, possibly containing the mortal remains of Kannaki. Until the breaking of its sealed walls for research purposes, this puzzle will never be solved.

yes, but iI wish it'd remain closed!

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Several temples between Guruvayoor and Ernakulam are believed to be originally Buddhist/Jain shrines. Trikkanamathilakam was once a center of Buddhists and Jains. I have read (just can't remember in which book) that when Hinduism was gaining a stronger presence in Kerala (I guess during Sankaraacharya's time) the Hindu scholars defeated Buddhist scholars in a debate and forced them to leave their temples. In fact some of the events at Kodungalloor temple during Bharani festival may well indicate that. For instance, the custom of singing profane songs is the practice at Kavu Theendal. And during this desecration ceremony they are said to run around the temple beating the copper roof of the shrine with bamboo sticks. I wonder was this the way the Hindus drove away the defeated Buddhists/Jains?

Yes, I believe it was indeed Shankaracharya that led to the demise of Buddhism and Jainism in Kerala. Consider the erstwhile importance of Kayamkulam as an important Buddhist centre of learning.
There's some controversy regarding the correct date of Shankaracharya. Some say, on the basis of astronomical calculations, that he was born around 9 BC, and not 8th century AD, as popularly believed. I think even before Shankaracharya this process had started- just a hunch because the Ayyappanama stotra contains one glorifying epithet "Bauddha-dharma-vinaashaaya-namah". Can one say the the Sankaracharya merely completed what others had started all along?
Re: the desecration ceremony, I believe 'everything's fair in love, war and theology'

It's so fascinating, this account of Trikkanamathilakam. Can you tell me where this place might be, presently?

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Unlike other Siva temples, Lord Udyaneswara is facing west as if looking at the Atabian Sea. Was it similar at the original Trikkanamathilakam temple? I don't know. I wonder whether this was a common practice at temples erected by Chera kings. At the temple at Palani, (built by a Chera king) also the lord Murugan faces the west - the ithihyam is that the Chera king wanted Muruga to face towards his kingdom.

There's one point though: Does the westward facing image be in accordance with the temple vaastu shastra, or just according to the whim of the ruler? I always wonder when the whim of a ruler becomes law, so as to be sanctioned even by the Shastras? Again, if we take this as a common feature, there are many Siva temples which face west, like the Paalora Siva temple on the top of a hillock north of Calicut at a place called Thalakalatthur. Can we derive that most of the westward facing temples have been encouraged or influenced by the Chera design? just a whimsical thought!

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Couldn't agree with you more. What other explanation is there? How can all those events you mentioned may have taken place in our little state?

Some incidents like those from the Ramayana seem plausible because of the relative proximity of Kerala to Lanka. On this score, I have another feeling that the Ramayana again took place someplace else- not where we have supposed it did, in the first place, but another area where the geographical descriptions were more 'in sync'. But rather tell that (to you first) after preparing a proper 'story'.

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Adding sub titles- you must be kidding. I have copied it on to a CD, but adding subtitles is beyond me

Oh! Just kidding!   I was thinking something akin to an audio commentary!

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Thanks so much for the link to the map.

Did you take a look at the map? I'm curious- hope it was of some interest!

BTW, I need to ask you: what does this 'kulam' word mean? like in Vaniyamkulam, Tiruvanjikulam, Ernakulam, and what about 'Kurussi' like Vaadaanamkurussi. The Kulam word also appears in Lanka Tamil areas.

Quite eager to know your response.

Groomlake

Edited by groomlake, 07 June 2006 - 05:11 PM.

[lekha]

what a wonderful discussion! so enjoying it all.

ammini, your observation about the black pepper offering in kodungallur reminds me of the Vazhuthiringya Nivedyam (brinjal offering) at koodalmanikkyam in irinjalakuda - this is said to be specially effective in cases of stomach disorders. the temple is really beautiful with its round koothambalam and wonderfully clear temple tank - there is also a meenoottu offering of cooked rice for the holy carp. not even a sprig of tulasi is allowed to grow in the premises as bharatan in his mood of ecstatic happiness is the only deity that is worshipped here - there isn't even the obligatory ganapathy.

my parents recently went round the four temples in that region dedicated to the four brothers : sriraman at triprayar, lakshamanan at moozhilulam, bharatan at irinjalakuda (koodalmanikkyam) and shatrughnan at payamal - this is supposed to be very auspicious.

[Ammini]

Lekha:

Please join the discussion. It has been years since I went to Irinjaalakkuda temple. I have heard about the Vazhuthiringya Nivedyam at koodalmanikkyam. Meenoottu offering of cooked rice for the fish in temple tanks is performed at some other temples too - Meenkolathikavu is the only one I can remember now. How wonderful your parents visited those four famous temples. I have been to Rama's and Bharata's temples not the others.

[lakme]

Lekha,

We've been to Tripayar- its really a beautiful temple. One of the loveliest things was their meenkolam, where they sell little cups of rice so people can feed the fish. Vani Jayaram has sung this for a Malayalam movie:

Tripayar appa sri rama
Bhava tripadangalil enn pranaamam

[Ammini]

Groomlake:

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But would appreciate your input on real location of Vanji. I can only imagine the archaeological treasures hidden beneath the silt!.

The most logical explanation I have read about the location of Vanchi was in an English translation of Manimekalai based on the Tamil version by U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, with introduction and notes by Sridharam K. Guruswamy and S. Srinivasan. I am quoting their various passages about Vanchi below:

The three kingdoms Chera, Chola and Pandya were huddled together in the southernmost tip of India. Often one kingdom annexed territory that had been under another’s rule. The hegemony passed by turns from one to another, and back again, according to the changing tides of war.  

First VanchiDescriptions in Pliny’s in Natural History, and later Periplus Maris Erythraei, about the chief cities, seaports, and trade of the ancient Tamils fully bear out the wealth of information found in poems of the Sangam age. One example; There is a village, known now as Tiruk Karur (Trikkariyoor) also Vanchi, on the banks of the river Periyaar, near the foot of western ghats, far from the river-mouth. Remains of enormous buildings are still to be seen around here. The spot is 40 km from Cochin. Ptolomy calls this Koveoura, the capital of Chera kingdom.

Second Vanchi: At one point Chera monarch extended his sway, and annexed a large chunk of territory, known as Kongu Naadu (now comprising of the districts of Coimbatore and Salem). And the center of administration was transferred to Karur (of present Tamil Nadu), west of Uraiyur, the Chola capital, and a suburb of Tiruchirappilli. He renamed Karur as Vanchi after his historical capital far to the south, and built temples confirming this nomenclature. This Karur is referred to as Vanjimaa Nagaram in stone inscriptions in the Pasupatheeswara temple at Karur. Vanchi tress are abundant in this neighborhood. Numerous rock inscriptions at nearby Pukazhi Malai, establish Karur as the Chera capital. There is a cave there and to the south of it an important rock cut record that says“ Ilam Kadungo, son of Ko Aadan Sellirumporai, when he was nominated Ilango (heir-apparent) has this stone devised this way”.  

Third Vanchi: Adiyaakku Nallar refers to the Chera capital as Tiruvanjai-kalam, (Tiruvanchikkulam) near the mouth of the same Periyaar, but far to the west. This certainly was once Chera capital, but at a much later age. During the days of Silapathikaram and after, Vanchi meant “Chera capital”; which Kannaki reached, proceeding west, following the course of Vaigai river. Old, or the first, Vanchi (Tiru Karur or Trikkariyoor) was found to be far to the south.

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Never been there, but I've also seen vattezhuthu at the base of Siva temple at Kilikurushimangalam, the birthplace of Kunjan Nambiar, near Lakkidi. This temple is an ancient one indeed- worth visiting!

Many old temples worth visiting, wish I had the time every time I went to Kerala. Vattezuthu inscriptions are found in many Kerala temples. Vattezuthu inscriptions are found also at Iranikkulam, tripunithura and Irinjalakkuda temples - to name a few.

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yes, but iI wish it'd remain closed!

  
Of course I agree.

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It's so fascinating, this account of Trikkanamathilakam. Can you tell me where this place might be, presently?

Mathilakam town is very close to Kodungalloor, when traveling from Guruvayoor to Kodungalloor.  

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There's one point though: Does the westward facing image be in accordance with the temple vaastu shastra, or just according to the whim of the ruler? I always wonder when the whim of a ruler becomes law, so as to be sanctioned even by the Shastras? Again, if we take this as a common feature, there are many Siva temples which face west, like the Paalora Siva temple on the top of a hillock north of Calicut at a place called Thalakalatthur. Can we derive that most of the westward facing temples have been encouraged or influenced by the Chera design? just a whimsical thought!

Very true. It could be either one of these or perhaps both reasons.  Westward facing images are there in many  temples, especially Siva temples. Don’t know much about vasthu Sastra.

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Did you take a look at the map? I'm curious- hope it was of some interest!

Yes, very interesting.

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BTW, I need to ask you: what does this 'kulam' word mean? like in Vaniyamkulam, Tiruvanjikulam, Ernakulam, and what about 'Kurussi' like Vaadaanamkurussi. The Kulam word also appears in Lanka Tamil areas.

Kulam in Malayalam refers to a body of water. If it has any other meaning, I really don’t know. In what context is the word used in Lanka Tamil? Ernakulam is said to have been derived from the word Rishinagakulam a tank (kulam) in the famous Siva Temple in the town. The shivalingam enshrined here, legend goes, was brought here by Nagarishi, a wandering ascetic who discovered it at a place called Bagularanya. He is said to have rested awhile at the present site of the temple after placing the idol securely near him. When he woke up he found the idol embedded to the ground and would not move. It is said that he attained moksha here. A temple came up here and the place surrounding it was called Rishinagakulam, corrupted later to Ernakulam. The place where the pond rose was once a marshy wasteland. Another explanation I have heard is that it is a corruption of the Tamil word 'Erayanarkulam' which means 'Lord Siva's abode'.

Ammini

Edited by Ammini, 07 June 2006 - 11:56 PM.

[lekha]

groomlake, re: your query about "kurussi"  - i'm not too sure about the actual meaning of the word, but in the history of chittur, when the konganpada battle took place and the kongan army was defeated by the combined villages, one of the chieftains, the valluvanad rajaa, was given some villages as a reward - one of them was kurissi vilayanchatanur - not sure whether this still exists?
and there is also the village of kilikurissi mangalam (where there is the kunjan nambiar (otamthullal)memorial) in palakkad district.
perhaps kurissi means hamlet or village?

and of course, palakkad itself means "the forest of pala trees", no?

[groomlake]

The 'kulam' word I've seen appears in TN as well as Eelam. But of course, the obvious meaning would be what Ammini has suggested: a body of water. But, elsewhere, I have seen, in some old texts, the translation of kuLam is taken as kulam (as in kulam, gotram, etc) , not kuLam (or pond in Malayalam). hence, my question- do these -kulam towns be necessarily be associated with bodies of water as well as a group of professionals? like 'Vaniyamkulam' - of course Vaniyam derives from the word Vanijam. But the the addition of -kulam, could it mean a settlement of Vanijars- or tradesmen near a body of water? But I may be wrong. BTW, the word 'Bania' in N. India is derived from sanskrit word for trade Vanija.

Again, the -kurisshi word, like in Kodhakkurussi, Killi-kkurussi-mangalam, could mean a 'cross' or a crossroad? a junction?

There are other words like '-kkaad' like in Edakkaad and Paalakkaad. As Lekha correctly pointed out, it has to mean: a forest of Paala trees. BTW, Ottappalam, I was told by a local greybeard is not 'one bridge' as I foreigner like me thought it to be, but derived from 'Otta-paala': Lone Paala. What d'you think?

A frequent word is '-maNNA': meaning soil(?), like in PanamaNNA, PerinthalmaNNA. But you find this is old Taravad names like Pudu-MaNNa (There was this PuthuMaNNa Kandar Menon, who led a Chaaver-padA and died with 18 of his men during a Mamankam- Ref:"Nairs of Malabar"- Asian Educational Service, New Delhi )  

Also in line, '-ssheri' (eg. Cherplassheri),  '-oor' and '-eeri' (eg, Maavoor, Trikkadeeri) derived from oor, meaning town in Tamil?, -puzha (eg. Vallappuzha) meaning river bank, a mooring station, ferry point? a ford?

Just wanted to add that certain texts translate the word -ssheri as '-Sreni' or 'Guild'

The basic point that I wish to stress is to find some association between these 'old' names with trade routes to the Hinterland, esp. Coimbatore from Kodungalloor.

Ammini, I re-read your postings, and looking over a few maps (a similar one) and the 'trading outpost' theory seems very plausible indeed.


Groomlake

ED: added Blue text

Edited by groomlake, 08 June 2006 - 09:14 PM.

[groomlake]

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Kulam in Malayalam refers to a body of water. If it has any other meaning, I really don’t know. In what context is the word used in Lanka Tamil? Ernakulam is said to have been derived from the word Rishinagakulam a tank (kulam) in the famous Siva Temple in the town. The shivalingam enshrined here, legend goes, was brought here by Nagarishi, a wandering ascetic who discovered it at a place called Bagularanya. He is said to have rested awhile at the present site of the temple after placing the idol securely near him. When he woke up he found the idol embedded to the ground and would not move. It is said that he attained moksha here. A temple came up here and the place surrounding it was called Rishinagakulam, corrupted later to Ernakulam. The place where the pond rose was once a marshy wasteland. Another explanation I have heard is that it is a corruption of the Tamil word 'Erayanarkulam' which means 'Lord Siva's abode'.

Thanks, Ammini for the very interesting sthalapuranam of Ernakulam.
A very fascinating article I'd read somewhere stated that the Sivalinga of Vaikom, which was installed by the asura Khara, was rediscovered by Parashurama, as in knee-deep water on the shores of the sea. At one time in the remote past, that tract of land was indeed a foot or so below sealevel, and also the edge of the sea. Over the ages, a sandbar was built up offshore, and a Kaayal was formed, and Vaikom is now where it is presently, much inland. What intruiged me is that the same forces was responsible for the reshaping of history that was Kodungalloor.

This diverse origins for one word makes it confusing. Let me quote an example from Maharashtra- sorry for the divergence! The word 'Maratha' is supposed to be derived from 'Maha-Ratha', but a few (rather passionate ones, I should say   ) claim it is derived from the Urdu/Hindi panegyric 'Marr kar hattha' i.e."yielded (only) after death"!

But I was not so sure about the story of Parashurama rediscovering the Vaikom Siva linga. Could this be verified, Ammini?

[Ammini]

groomlake, on Jun 8 2006, 02:37 AM, said:

But I was not so sure about the story of Parashurama rediscovering the Vaikom Siva linga. Could this be verified, Ammini?

groomlake: In an earlier post you wrote "I find history fascinating. Yes! Especially so, for me the central Kerala region!"  My interest is in this specific region, the old kingdom of Cochin and the ancient history of greater south India (sangam period); and I still have a lot more to read. I am reading the Engish translation of Purananooru - four hundred songs of war and wisdom. Fascianting book. You were writing about Calicut, Kayamkulam and Vaikam. I haven't read upon any of those regions. All I know is that there is a famous Mahadeva temple at Vaikom. I just looked at their website and it quotes three different stories about the idol!
Lakme, Lekha, Shyama, you all have any idea about this sthalapurana?

[groomlake]

lekha, on Jun 7 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

what a wonderful discussion! so enjoying it all.

ammini, your observation about the black pepper offering in kodungallur reminds me of the Vazhuthiringya Nivedyam (brinjal offering) at koodalmanikkyam in irinjalakuda - this is said to be specially effective in cases of stomach disorders.
my parents recently went round the four temples in that region dedicated to the four brothers : sriraman at triprayar, lakshamanan at moozhilulam, bharatan at irinjalakuda (koodalmanikkyam) and shatrughnan at payamal - this is supposed to be very auspicious.

Lekha: Your point about the brinjal offering at Koodalmanikkyam is intruiging! I wonder what was the motivation or reasoning behind such offerings. yes, Ammini's explanation of the black pepper offering at Kodungalloor in that it reflects the importance of Kodungalloor in international spice trade. But brinjals?  

There's also a similar belief that visiting the 'Khara' triad of Siva temples: Vaikom, Ettumanoor and Kadutthuruthi on the same day, in one circuit is auspicious. So also, visiting Tiruvilwamala and Tirunavaya on the same day. However, someone tried to bend the rules by saying that seeing the Gopuram of a temple is equal to visiting the temple itself, and that seeing the lights on the gopuram of Tiruvilwamala temple from Tirunavaya was enough. The Lord did not take it kindly, and the gopuram at Tiruvilwamala temple were struck by lightning and destroyed.  Ref: Legends and Temples of Kerala

Groomlake

Edited by groomlake, 08 June 2006 - 09:19 PM.

[groomlake]

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First VanchiDescriptions in Pliny’s in Natural History, and later Periplus Maris Erythraei, about the chief cities, seaports, and trade of the ancient Tamils fully bear out the wealth of information found in poems of the Sangam age. One example; There is a village, known now as Tiruk Karur (Trikkariyoor) also Vanchi, on the banks of the river Periyaar, near the foot of western ghats, far from the river-mouth. Remains of enormous buildings are still to be seen around here. The spot is 40 km from Cochin. Ptolomy calls this Koveoura, the capital of Chera kingdom.

Thanks a lot, Ammini! Is this place still called Trikkariyoor ? I have to locate it on the map!

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Third Vanchi: Old, or the first, Vanchi (Tiru Karur or Trikkariyoor) was found to be far to the south.

Could you please elaborate on this line, Ammini? And how it differs from the first Vanchi?

And just as an afterthought, which site, according to your research, do you think could be the legendary Ophir of yore?

Groomlake

Edited by groomlake, 08 June 2006 - 09:50 PM.

[Ammini]

groomlake, on Jun 8 2006, 11:20 AM, said:

Thanks a lot, Ammini! Is this place still called Trikkariyoor ? I have to locate it on the map!

I belive so. Trikkariyoor is in Ernakulam district near Kothamangalam.

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Third Vanchi: Old, or the first, Vanchi (Tiru Karur or Trikkariyoor) was found to be far to the south. Could you please elaborate on this line, Ammini? And how it differs from the first Vanchi?

First Vachi- present Trikkariyoor, Second Vanchi present Karoor in Tamil Nadu and third Vanchi -  Tiruvanchikulam. It is so close to Kodungalloor. I guess the “Chera capital” Vanchi; which Kannaki reached, proceeding west from Madurai, following the course of Vaigai river was Tiruvanchikkulam. The old, or the first, Vanchi (Tiru Karur or Trikkariyoor) is geographically far to the south.

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And just as an afterthought, which site, according to your research, do you think could be the legendary Ophir of yore?

Groomlake: Please don't say my "research" I was not a student of history in school. Yes, I am very interested in the topic and read a lot on South Indian history and ancient world history. I can't say it is true reserch. Anyway here is my two cents worth on Ophir.
At Tel Qasile, an ancient site near Tel Aviv, achiologists unearthed a potsherd which had a message in Phoenician-Hebrew: Gold of Ophir, the possession of Beth-Horon, thirty shekels. Many biblical archaeologists believe that this symbol, called "Ni-ther " by ancient Egyptians, marked all the ships that travelled to Ophir in Solomon's navy. The inscription on the potsherd in Israel verifies two facts; Voyages to Ophir actually took place and Phoenician ships acquired gold from Ophir during the time of Solomon. American explorer Savoy also found in Amazonas, Peru, a series of figures inscribed on the wall of an ancient tomb which he translated as Ophir. Savoy and his team of explorers are said to have uncovered innumerable inscriptions and similar designs, on stone, on walls, on pottery, and on textiles in the ancient city of Gran Vilaya in Peru.
How did these objects reach Peru from the ancient world? I don't know. I also don't know if Ophir was India.

edited for typos

Edited by Ammini, 09 June 2006 - 09:33 AM.

[Ammini]

At koodalmaanikyam there is also a nivedyam called mukkudi, a herbal concoction (good for digestion) offered the day after puthiri.

[Ammini]

arnab, on Jun 6 2006, 09:33 PM, said:

is this the most substantive thread ever on another subcontinent? it certainly looks like--i haven't read any of it yet, saving it for a rainy day.

We have gone from performing arts to temple rituals, to ancient history; all on this one thread. Sure hope you read it on a "rainy day"

[lakme]

Ammini, on Jun 8 2006, 07:49 AM, said:

groomlake, on Jun 8 2006, 02:37 AM, said:

But I was not so sure about the story of Parashurama rediscovering the Vaikom Siva linga. Could this be verified, Ammini?

groomlake: In an earlier post you wrote "I find history fascinating. Yes! Especially so, for me the central Kerala region!"  My interest is in this specific region, the old kingdom of Cochin and the ancient history of greater south India (sangam period); and I still have a lot more to read. I am reading the Engish translation of Purananooru - four hundred songs of war and wisdom. Fascianting book. You were writing about Calicut, Kayamkulam and Vaikam. I haven't read upon any of those regions. All I know is that there is a famous Mahadeva temple at Vaikom. I just looked at their website and it quotes three different stories about the idol!
Lakme, Lekha, Shyama, you all have any idea about this sthalapurana?

Ammini,

I will call home and ask. Vaikom is the place of origin of one of my grandparents, so someone in the family is bound to know.
What fascinates me most is that, between us, we have generated such a scholarly and interesting discussion.

[Ammini]

lakme, on Jun 8 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

Ammini,
I will call home and ask. Vaikom is the place of origin of one of my grandparents, so someone in the family is bound to know.
What fascinates me most is that, between us, we have generated such a scholarly and interesting discussion.

That is great Lakme. It would be nice if someone in your family can shed some light on this. I have some friends from Vaikom, but they are Kerala Christians. Still I asked, but they had no clue.

I agree we are having an interesting discussion, but scholarly I don't know

[groomlake]

Ammini, on Jun 8 2006, 04:49 PM, said:

My interest is in this specific region, the old kingdom of Cochin and the ancient history of greater south India (sangam period); and I still have a lot more to read. I am reading the Engish translation of Purananooru - four hundred songs of war and wisdom. Fascianting book.

So sorry for moving away from your core area of interest!

Could it be possible to quote something from the Purananooru (BTW how is this word pronounced? Is it an old Malayalam word?) I wonder how these old war songs would sound like too- does this book mention something about the rhythms, etc? I bet there might still be remnants/variants, especially as part of war-rituals, still practices in erstwhile Cochin - Travancore.

Coming back to temples, I had seen a program on the Ochira Parabrahma temple on DD. I felt that the worship rituals conducted there was probably the closest to what one would have expected as worship in Kaavus throughout Kerala in the days of yore.

Ammini- thanks for the location of the 1st Vanchi.
Very Interesting discussion, this. But, I pray that it is not branched off into another thread!

And also thanks to NG, we have another topic looming before us, of the Chinese influence on Kerala!

BTW, what I'd read about Vaikom was from Bhavan's publication: 'Legends and Temples of Kerala' by KR Vaidyanathan, a fascinating read, but short and concise.

Groomlake

[shyama]

groomlake, on Jun 9 2006, 01:25 PM, said:

Could it be possible to quote something from the Purananooru (BTW how is this word pronounced? Is it an old Malayalam word?) I wonder how these old war songs would sound like too- does this book mention something about the rhythms, etc? I bet there might still be remnants/variants, especially as part of war-rituals, still practices in erstwhile Cochin - Travancore.

No, GM, the word "PuRanAnURu" ("four hundred poems about the Exterior) wouldn't be a Malayalam word . Since it belongs to an age between the first and third centuries, it would rather be the mother of similar Malayalam usages.

Translated and edited by George Hart and Hank Heifetz, the Introduction to the Penguin edition mentions the existence of both "formulas" ("set phrases that fit into a meter" and appear as refrains and "themes" in the poems. The orality of the work is also quite contested.

The Purananuru said:

For example the final poems of the work are about a lowcast drummer (Kinaiyan) who goes to a king in the morning, beats his drum, praises him, and is rewarded. The formula describing the drum is repeated several times. Examples are poem 373. "I also drum/on my black kinai drum with its handsome eye" and poem 374, "beating out a rhthm on my dark kinai drum/ with its clear eye."

An overview of early Tamil meter and alliteration along with references to how the rhythms of thw war section are "staccato and violent" while others follow a more "prosaic" or "normal" discourse are also mentioned with references.

Quote

BTW, what I'd read about Vaikom was from Bhavan's publication: 'Legends and Temples of Kerala' by KR Vaidyanathan, a fascinating read, but short and concise.

Same here! My ABC book too:-)

Ammini, on Jun 7 2006, 08:55 PM, said:

It has been years since I went to Irinjaalakkuda temple. I have heard about the Vazhuthiringya Nivedyam at koodalmanikkyam. Meenoottu offering of cooked rice for the fish in temple tanks is performed at some other temples too - Meenkolathikavu is the only one I can remember now. How wonderful your parents visited those four famous temples. I have been to Rama's and Bharata's temples not the others.

Almost every Ramayana Maasam, we go on that naalambalam pilgrimage Ammini. Can't say I enjoy it much, more a ritual like thing especially with the hoardes of people rushing to do the same before any nada closes and puts a pause on the rest of it.

Meenoottu is alo offered at the Thriprayaar Shri Rama temple too I believe.

Edited by shyama, 09 June 2006 - 03:49 PM.

[lekha]

i'm sure someone has mentioned this somewhere along this intriguing conversation - the kodungallur area is the location of the legendary Muziris (muchiri in tamil and malayalam)  the famous first century roman trading post that pliny the elder called "primum emporium indiae" - archaeological discoveries in 2004 have specifically pinpointed the pattanam/paravur area as being the exact location - fascinating stuff, no?

just wondering what the indian merchants bought from these romans who brought glassware, purple cloth, olive oil and wool - and also gold coins and metal weapons/tools.

and they were looking to take back pepper, cloves, ginger, cotton, pearls.  but of course, muziris was a trading post...

also reading some interesting stuff about the region being a famous bead-making centre - the romans prized beryl beads made in carur regia cerotothri (karur capital of the cheras), which they could buy in muziris. here's some lovely maps - what's also interesting is the amount of misinformation that indian merchants supplied to the romans in order to keep their trade secrets!!

Edited by lekha, 09 June 2006 - 05:27 PM.

[Ammini]

groomlake, on Jun 9 2006, 02:55 AM, said:

Quote

So sorry for moving away from your core area of interest!

Hey, this discussion thread is not based just on my core area of interest. All I meant was that I am not able to answer your question properly.

Quote

Ammini- thanks for the location of the 1st Vanchi.
Very Interesting discussion, this. But, I pray that it is not branched off into another thread!

That is up to the moderating team

[shyama]

Oh! In that case, I too pray that nothing here be split please...Pleaseeee?

[Ammini]

Quote

And also thanks to NG, we have another topic looming before us, of the Chinese influence on Kerala!

Groomkale:
When you start using abbrevitions I am at a loss Whre is NG's post?

[groomlake]

Ammini, on Jun 9 2006, 08:59 PM, said:

Quote

And also thanks to NG, we have another topic looming before us, of the Chinese influence on Kerala!

Groomkale:
When you start using abbrevitions I am at a loss Whre is NG's post?

Pardon me. NG: National Geographic

[Ammini]

groomlake, on Jun 9 2006, 10:30 PM, said:

Pardon me. NG: National Geographic

Groomlake: Thanks. Was this in a recent issue of NG or on their web site?

[groomlake]

Ammini, on Jun 10 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

groomlake, on Jun 9 2006, 10:30 PM, said:

Pardon me. NG: National Geographic

Groomlake: Thanks. Was this in a recent issue of NG or on their web site?

It appeared on NG channel, and also appeared on the pages of the NG Magazine.July 2005 issue
Here's a brief reference to the great Chinese Admiral Zhang he. The was another book too, detailing the voyages of the Chinese fleet. In the Chinese maps, Cochin is depicted as 'Ko Chi" and Calicut as "Ku Li"

There are many "Chinese" words too, like Cheena chatti, Cheena vala, Cheena bharani, Cheena milagu (one theory suggests that this 'Kaandaari' chilly pepper was brought back from the new world by the Chinese, but it's unsubstantiated)

Groomlake

Edited by groomlake, 10 June 2006 - 07:45 PM.

[Ammini]

groomlake, on Jun 10 2006, 09:10 AM, said:

It appeared on NG channel, and also appeared on the pages of the NG Magazine.July 2005 issue
Here's a brief reference to the great Chinese Admiral Zhang he. The was another book too, detailing the voyages of the Chinese fleet. In the Chinese maps, Cochin is depicted as 'Ko Chi" and Calicut as "Ku Li"

Thanks so much for the links.

Quote

There are many "Chinese" words too, like Cheena chatti, Cheena vala, Cheena bharani,..Groomlake

I published an artice on this topic in the spring 2004 issue of Flavor & Fortune. It is also here on my website.