etymology - another subcontinent forums

etymology, meanings and sources of food names

arnab	Sep 28 2004, 05:36 AM Post #1
bandwidth glutton Group: founding members Posts: 14839 Joined: 21-July 04 From: northfield, minnesota Member No.: 1	been meaning to start this thread for a while. basically, we tend to take the names of dishes for granted. yes, some are self-explanatory if you speak the languages (rosho-gulla/ras-gulla=ball of syrup) but sometimes not even if you do. i'm going to list some names of dishes and ingredients that i like and use but don't really know the meaning of the name of. please add answers and questions of your own. note: i'm not asking what these things are--only what their names mean and ideally what they derive from biryani paratha/porotta sambhar dosa pakoda masala dalchini i have lots more but let's start with these. -------------------- yeh sab kya ho raha hai, beta duryodhan? arnab@anothersubcontinent.com

Mahmud	Sep 28 2004, 05:53 AM Post #2
member Group: maha contributors Posts: 514 Joined: 27-July 04 Member No.: 21	Just don't let Moazzam near this thread. I'm sure he could come up with quite an imaginative etymology.

arnab	Sep 28 2004, 06:21 AM Post #3
bandwidth glutton Group: founding members Posts: 14839 Joined: 21-July 04 From: northfield, minnesota Member No.: 1	yes, must make this forum "read only" for moazzam. -------------------- yeh sab kya ho raha hai, beta duryodhan? arnab@anothersubcontinent.com

anil	Sep 28 2004, 06:50 AM Post #4
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 3289 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Homeless, Stateless - Bosnia/Kosovo Member No.: 58	Letting non-linguists and structural anthropologists at it is more fraught with peril

gautam	Sep 28 2004, 04:45 PM Post #5
member Group: maha contributors Posts: 405 Joined: 3-September 04 Member No.: 113	dalchini < daru chini ? --> daru =tree; chini= from china; i.e. from the Himalayan mountains, or foreign lands of the East cinnamomun obtusifolium/cassia/tamala --plentiful in the Garhwal Himalayas; source of cassia bark, tejpatta=usual 'cinnamon' of northern India Extrapolated to all cinnamon, including c. zeylanicum?

Rushina	Sep 28 2004, 05:21 PM Post #6
member Group: maha contributors Posts: 824 Joined: 27-July 04 From: Bombay Member No.: 23	Nothing to contribute at the moment but this looks like it will be an interesting thread... Rushina -------------------- Always in search of that perfect bite! Blogs: A Perfect Bite and My Mumbai Cookbook

armagod	Oct 27 2004, 09:02 PM Post #7
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 3292 Joined: 2-August 04 From: london Member No.: 38	Here are a few etymologies, with links to IE and Semitic roots: masala: http://www.bartleby.com/61/98/G0039850.html biryani: http://www.bartleby.com/61/3/B0280300.html sambhar: http://www.bartleby.com/61/37/S0053700.html (wasn't there a thread on this?) No luck when it comes to the others. -------------------- "Jiggery pokery, trickery chokery, How did he open me up? Robbery! Muggery! Aussie skull-duggery! Out for a buggering duck."

Rumali Roti

Feb 7 2005, 11:02 PM

Post #8

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QUOTE

Brussel sprouts have nothing to do with Brussels. The French ABHOR french fries and import french beans from Portugal. Etc.

(1) What we refer to as �French beans� are called so because of the style in which we most commonly serve them (a la Francaise). The French call them �haricots verts� (green beans).

(2) Choux Bruxelles (�Brussels cabbages�) are believed to have first been cultivated and eaten near Brussels three or four hundred years ago. Sprouts

(3) Although potatoes came to Europe (and every where else) via South America, they are reputed to have first been cooked in hot oil by French chemist, Antoine August Parmentier, who brought them home from Germany.
Spuds

While the French don't eat fries in the same quantity as Americans do, they are not unpopular on French restaurant menus (and at Gare du nord)

There's some truth in advertising here.

This post has been edited by roshna: Feb 7 2005, 11:21 PM

vAtraT	Feb 8 2005, 12:11 AM Post #9
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2689 Joined: 21-January 05 From: here to (unholy) Trinity Member No.: 240	I'm humbled -- umbled, even -- mon cher. Unrelatedly, french beans (haricots verts) are called abichuela verdes in espanol. And they're called pharasbI in marAThI. Note the cute bastardization of FrenchBeans. French Beans -> pharasbI English -> ingraj (angrej in hindI) Dutch -> valandej French -> phirangI (though, later, all foreign sAhibs came to be called phirangI)

Rumali Roti	Feb 8 2005, 05:18 AM Post #10
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 4173 Joined: 27-July 04 Member No.: 19	[QUOTE]Note the cute bastardization of FrenchBeans. French Beans -> pharasbI[QUOTE] I love it. Note also, "Brinjal" (Indian English) and "RingNa" (Gujarati) from the Portuguese "beringela." Our street fruit seller used to call out "Storybaaaay" for "Strawberries" during the ten or so days in the cool months that he sold these. This post has been edited by roshna: Feb 8 2005, 05:36 AM

samir

Feb 8 2005, 07:14 AM

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QUOTE (roshna @ Feb 8 2005, 05:18 AM)

I love it. Note also, "Brinjal" (Indian English) and "RingNa" (Gujarati) from the Portuguese "beringela."

But didn't beringela itself come from the Indian root? According to the Hobson-Jobson, "...It looks as if the Skt. word were the original of all. The H. baingan again seems to have been modified from the P. badingan, [or, as Platte asserts, direct from Skt. vanga, vangana, `the plant of Bengal,'] and baingan also through the Ar. to have been the parent of the Span. berengena, and so of all the other European names except the English `egg-plant'. ..."

Samir

Sue Darlow	Feb 8 2005, 02:52 PM Post #12
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2596 Joined: 17-September 04 Member No.: 129	I think I have worked out why Jerusalem artichokes are called thus - Girasole (pronounced jeera-soh-lay) = sunflower in Italian, and the flower of the plant resembles a sunflower. The flavour resembles an artichoke. The Italian word for them is 'topinambur'! Sue

Rumali Roti

Feb 8 2005, 07:05 PM

Post #13

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QUOTE

But didn't beringela itself come from the Indian root?

Samir, you're right--the root is Sanskrit. However, H-J says "The word in the form brinjaul is from the Portuguese . . . probably there is no word of the kind which has undergone such extraordinary variety of midifcations, whilst retaining the same meaning, as this." It appears that the original word in Sanskrit was bhantaki, and mutated wildly into other languages.

By the way, I don't see how the British and French term for it ("aubergine"), is derived from the Sanskrit root. "Aubergine" sounds to me as though it might have decended from another parent altogether.

Sue, what's the origin of 'topinambur'? Do you know?

This post has been edited by roshna: Feb 8 2005, 07:07 PM

armagod

Feb 8 2005, 07:11 PM

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QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Feb 8 2005, 02:52 PM)

Girasole (pronounced jeera-soh-lay) = sunflower in Italian, and the flower of the plant resembles a sunflower.

gira = turn, sole = sun. How literal!

--------------------

"Jiggery pokery, trickery chokery,
How did he open me up?
Robbery! Muggery! Aussie skull-duggery!
Out for a buggering duck."

Sue Darlow

Feb 9 2005, 01:39 AM

Post #15

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QUOTE

Aubergine, too, is etymologically unrelated. Auberge means "inn" in French. Was there a tradition of serving baingan bhartA at DhAbAs in the French countryside a few centuries ago???

Indeed, much much earlier the Aryans could have introduced the custom before returning to their motherland...

Sue

seajay	Feb 9 2005, 02:46 AM Post #16
bandwidth eater Group: moderators Posts: 2285 Joined: 22-July 04 Member No.: 7	This is where I came in (almost) on Another Listserv (Sasialit) years ago. Much looking up in H-J & back & forthing -- but here's the Shorter OED scoop on derivation -- and I was right in my recall that the Arabic "Al" got in between the original Skt to make Aubergine: Fr. Catalonian alberginia, fr. Arabic al-badinjan, fr. Persian badingan, fr. Skt vatingana. Sorry I can't insert the diacritical dots & all, but it doesn't have anything to do with auberge -- which comes from the Provencal alberga , Nice try though cj -------------------- have you no sense plenty of it he answered but at times we get tired of using it

vAtraT	Feb 10 2005, 07:07 AM Post #17
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2689 Joined: 21-January 05 From: here to (unholy) Trinity Member No.: 240	In matters of etymology, it's best not to kid. I was only kidding about "baingan bhartA in the countryside". The etymologies you all provided, starting with sanskr.t kukkuTa, pil and vaTingaNa make sense. Two questions, though: - What does/did pil mean in sanskr.t? I've never come across it. - vaTingaNa / vangaNa is identified in one of the cited etymologies as "veggie from Bengal (vanga)" while in another as "one that cures wind (flatulence?)". You can't have it both ways. Besides "gaNa" means "group", "congregation", etc., in sanskr.t. Don't know what vaTi means.

gingerly

Feb 11 2005, 02:53 AM

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QUOTE

NUNCATIES, s. Rich cakes made by the Mahommedans in W. India chiefly imported into Bombay from Surat. [There is a Pers. word, nankhatai, �bread of Cathay or China,� with which this word has been connected. But Mr. Weir, Collector of Surat, writes that it is really nankhatai, Pers. nan, �bread,� and Mahr. khat, shat, �six� ; meaning a special kind of cake composed of six ingredients�wheat-flour, eggs, sugar, butter or ghee, leaven produced from toddy or grain, and almonds.]

--------------------

'there are some things money can't buy. for everything else, there's the google'

mmm..lightningy
ow you say in english.. fingularly exquifite

Sue Darlow	Feb 15 2005, 01:57 PM Post #19
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2596 Joined: 17-September 04 Member No.: 129	I always wondered why brinjals were called 'eggplant', having only seen the large, or long, purple ones. Then more recently, I came across ones like these - the small white ones - where some are about the size of large hen's eggs, and I understand! Sue

Rumali Roti	Feb 15 2005, 07:09 PM Post #20
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 4173 Joined: 27-July 04 Member No.: 19	Wow! This is a new sight for me. Do you happen to know how white eggplant is grown? White asparagus is white because its sown so deep in the soil as to be totally deprived of sunlight (no cholorophyll action = no coloring). The difference in taste from green asparagus is remarkable (more mild and buttery than green asparagus). Does white baigan taste any different from the more common purple variety?

armagod	Feb 15 2005, 07:22 PM Post #21
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 3292 Joined: 2-August 04 From: london Member No.: 38	The white ones are definitiely available in many markets in India, my folks get them all the time. I don't believe it's grown any differently from the regular purple ones. The whiteness is almost certainly not due to a lack of sunlight,: these are fruit, not stems or leaves. -------------------- "Jiggery pokery, trickery chokery, How did he open me up? Robbery! Muggery! Aussie skull-duggery! Out for a buggering duck."

vAtraT	Feb 16 2005, 12:38 AM Post #22
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2689 Joined: 21-January 05 From: here to (unholy) Trinity Member No.: 240	I'll be damned! White brinjal!! No wonder someone decided to call it egg plant. Do you suppose, if I suddenly began to call cauliflower something like "albino broccoli", it'll catch on? Hundreds of years hence, might people parse "al-bino-broc-coli" on Web sites just like this one and wonder if it is etymologically related to "gobi" (vegetable grown in the desert) or "collie flower" (vegetable resembling shepherd dogs)??

seajay

Feb 16 2005, 12:44 AM

Post #23

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QUOTE (vAtraT @ Feb 15 2005, 12:08 PM)

I'll be damned! White brinjal!! No wonder someone decided to call it egg plant.

And no doubt available at an upscale or farmers' market near you some summer day. Rarely, but sometimes, even makes it up here even further north on the left coast. Think I have sometimes seen it in East Asian NON-organic markets, too.

cj

--------------------

have you no sense

plenty of it he answered
but at times we get tired
of using it

arnab	Feb 16 2005, 12:57 AM Post #24
bandwidth glutton Group: founding members Posts: 14839 Joined: 21-July 04 From: northfield, minnesota Member No.: 1	just when i thought there was no way for this vile tumour to get any more disgusting here comes this excrescence from the vegetable garden of dr. moreau. -------------------- yeh sab kya ho raha hai, beta duryodhan? arnab@anothersubcontinent.com

Rumali Roti

Feb 16 2005, 01:59 AM

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QUOTE

"collie flower" (vegetable resembling shepherd dogs)

"Cauliflower" is from Italian cavoli fiori to mean "flowered cabbage," but "albino broccoli" sounds more accurate to me. Way to go, VaTraT!

vAtraT	Feb 16 2005, 02:17 AM Post #26
member Group: bandwidth eaters Posts: 2689 Joined: 21-January 05 From: here to (unholy) Trinity Member No.: 240	arnab: Do you really not like egg plant? Not like a good baingan bhartA?? And stuffed baingan??? I'm quite crestfallen. Really! Roshna: No, no, it's vAtraT, not VaTraT. It means "a largely harmless mixture of silly and salacious" in a tongue spoken by 70 million speakers all over Maharashtra and its diaspora.

Rumali Roti

Feb 16 2005, 04:23 AM

Post #27

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QUOTE

No, no, it's vAtraT, not VaTraT.

Arre vot re, vAtrat! I keep writing your name wrong only.

(If it's of any consolation, I think I say it correctly.)

arnab

Feb 16 2005, 05:11 AM

Post #28

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QUOTE (roshna @ Feb 15 2005, 03:53 PM)

QUOTE

No, no, it's vAtraT, not VaTraT.

Arre vot re, vAtrat! I keep writing your name wrong only.

(If it's of any consolation, I think I say it correctly.)

as long as you don't pronounce it "what rot!"

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yeh sab kya ho raha hai, beta duryodhan?

arnab@anothersubcontinent.com

vAtraT

Feb 16 2005, 06:16 AM

Post #29

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QUOTE

(roshna @ Feb 15 2005, 03:53 PM)

QUOTE

No, no, it's vAtraT, not VaTraT.

Arre vot re, vAtrat! I keep writing your name wrong only. (If it's of any consolation, I think I say it correctly.)

as long as you don't pronounce it "what rot!"

(1) I admit I've become anal about all this.

(2) Roshna, you spelled it "incorrectly" again ("vAtrat"). The capital and the small "t" have different sounds. But, yeah, if you're pronouncing it correctly, that's the main thang.

(3) arnab: Yeah, "What rot!" would be derisive. So would, as I suspected, in my anal haze, Roshna was pronouncing it -- "Vat Rat". I mean, I like to drink a li'l beet, but I no scamper around in no barrell, you know?

ajit	Feb 16 2005, 06:35 AM Post #30
bandwidth eater Group: founding members Posts: 4926 Joined: 21-July 04 Member No.: 2	vAtraT bhau, are you familiar with a contemporary poetry form called a 'vAtraTikA' ? not to mixed up with vAtraT TikA. (or even 'vA trATikA!') Anyhow, enough of my vaTvaT.

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