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indiachef
QUOTE (Rushina @ Jul 28 2004, 06:29 PM)
The most famous Parsi dish is undoubtably Dhansak, a curry made from mutton or chicken, several different kinds of lentils, and numerous vegetables. It is served with caramel-infused rice and fried minced meat kebabs. Like any complex dish the recipe varies from home to home and cook to cook.

Although I do not disagree, there are other Parsi foods that are notably worthy of attention

Sas ni Macchi
Kolmi-no-Patio
Patra ni macchi
Bheja nu Cutlets
Pork Vindaloo
Salli Gosht
Kid Gosht
Lagan nu Custard
Murg Farcha

Their vegetables cooked with broken eggs on the top and cooked covered in a shallow pan are so cool with Soft Chapatties

Dhansak - The Dhan and Shak - is more of a Sunday meal with a glass of Beer



shanta
QUOTE (indiachef @ Nov 28 2004, 06:32 PM)
Pork Vindaloo


Thought Vindaloo was Goan, Portuguese origin....

Is it Parsi?
Sue Darlow
QUOTE (shanta @ Nov 29 2004, 10:21 AM)
QUOTE (indiachef @ Nov 28 2004, 06:32 PM)
Pork Vindaloo


Thought Vindaloo was Goan, Portuguese origin....

Is it Parsi?

Many Parsis employ Goan cooks, hence they have adopted some Goan dishes like Pork Vindaloo and Goan prawn curry (yum!) and they have become a part of the Parsi repertoire!

Sue
arnab
over in the dhansak thread indiachef listed the following parsi dishes:

QUOTE
Sas ni Macchi
Kolmi-no-Patio
Patra ni macchi
Bheja nu Cutlets
Pork Vindaloo
Salli Gosht
Kid Gosht
Lagan nu Custard
Murg Farcha


okay, we've got some parsis here--let's have the recipes!
shanta
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Nov 29 2004, 03:06 AM)
Many Parsis employ Goan cooks, hence they have adopted some Goan dishes like Pork Vindaloo and Goan prawn curry (yum!) and they have become a part of the Parsi repertoire!

Sue

Thanks for the clarification, Sue! Is the Parsi version of Vindaloo(not the one cooked by Goan cooks) the same as Goan or does it have a bit of Parsi influence?
Rumali Roti
QUOTE
All the Parsi food recipes you wanted to cook but were afraid to ask

(Complete, with Mozart's 40th symphony as played by Goodi Servai!)
Sue Darlow
QUOTE (ajit @ Nov 30 2004, 11:18 AM)
All the Parsi food recipes you wanted to cook but were afraid to ask

What? Do you really think the whole of the Parsi repertoire is contained in a measly 20 recipes???? laugh.gif

Humpf!

Sue
indiachef
QUOTE (arnab @ Nov 29 2004, 09:48 PM)

okay, we've got some parsis here--let's have the recipes!

Me no Parsi - me like Parsi food the most - me miss it a lot

Recipes!!

One that comes to mind - Patra ni macchi - I would prefer a bass whole or filet - Chilean Sea bass is so tempting

Clean and cut fish - sprinkle with salt and leave for 10 minutes

Make chutney with cilantro (stems preferred), ginger, salt, lemon juice, coconut dessicated, sweet mango chutney, greeen chillies, some cumin seeds if desired

Use this on the fish. Steam in a double boiler

You may use banan leaf to wrap the fish. Personally I prefer large spinach leaves

Another way of cooking this - I did it twice over a decade ago is to use 1/2 white vinegar and 1/2 oil in a shallow pan - heat up and cook the spinach wrapped fish in it- there's a lot of spluttering though. Spinach leaves will certainly turn black due to the acidity of the solution

indiachef
QUOTE (shanta @ Nov 29 2004, 10:21 AM)
Thought Vindaloo was Goan, Portuguese origin....

Is it Parsi?

Not sure of that - I couldn't find an answer in all these years - just resigned to the fact that Parsis come form Gujarat and the Portuguese had a colony over there. Also the fact that Parsis were one of the first settlers in Bombay - a former Portuguese colony and the local REAL EAST INDIANS make Vindaloo
I am more inclined to lean towards accepting the latter assumption

And I do not think Goan cooks made any impact on the Parsis - that's my own opinion and for sure a fact

Parsi foods are more subtle and their Vindaloo is a fine example. Not sure what kind of vinegar they use though

The vindaloo has cherry tomatoes for sure. Goan vindaloo is based purely on the Goan dried red chillies, whole garam masala and toddy vinegar

ajit
QUOTE
that's my own opinion and for sure a fact


Something about that doesn't sound quite right. biggrin.gif
Sue Darlow
QUOTE
And I do not think Goan cooks made any impact on the Parsis -


Uh? I know so many Parsis who employ/employed Goan cooks, mostly women, not men (the cooks, that is!), and they turned out delicious Goan prawn cury, fish curry and vindaloo. Is that so strange?

I did an internet search and came up with, for example, the following, from a review of the Irani restaurant at Ballard Estate in Mumbai, "Britiania" -

"Goans are the only people, besides Parsis, who eat dhanshak on a regular basis. And, in early days, when being a Parsi meant being Sir Cowasji Jehangir or Sir Jamshetjee Tata, gentlemen who could afford to maintain a fleet of servants, it was Goan cooks who cooked the dhanshak."

http://www.mumbainet.com/eatinout/britania.htm

It was usually Christian Goan women that Parsis employed, not only as cooks but also as ayahs and general maids. I think on the one hand that these women had, relatively speaking, more freedom to travel and work away from home than their Hindu counterparts, and on the other hand, I think that Parsis felt them to be more in line with their way of thinking vis a vis hygiene habits, honesty, lack of food taboos etc.

Please, this is not MY opinion, but the one that many Parsis held. I came across a very interesting paper on the way that various attitudes to non-Parsis are expressed by Parsis in the works of Rohinton Mistry at

http://www.anselm.edu/NR/rdonlyres/51C105F...3809/paper5.pdf

Yes, I know, Arnab is going to split this thread off again! rolleyes.gif

Sue

Edited for typos and to add "lack of food taboos"
Rumali Roti
Another reason that Goans and Parsis enjoy/embellish each other's cuisine is that they share a love for pork dishes. There's a delightfully descriptive passage in Irving's "Son of the Circus," in which the Parsi protagonist travels to Goa in desperate mode to satisfy his hunger for sorpatel (salt pork).
indiachef
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Dec 1 2004, 06:56 PM)
Uh?  I know so many Parsis who employ/employed Goan cooks, mostly women, not men (the cooks, that is!), and they turned out delicious Goan prawn cury, fish curry and vindaloo. Is that so strange?

It is.

I think the East Indians went unnoticed.

Fact or fiction

Both late Behram and Rohington can weave stories - with all due respect to them.

I think the fact is Vindaloo to the Parsis came from the East Indians. If Goan cooks make a good Dhanshak, that would be fact too.

Goans did move to Bombay later and to distinguish from the other Christians, the Bombay Christians called themselves the East Indians.

Although the finest Indian Chef of the 20th Century was a Goan - Mascerenhas of the Taj with all his goan Brigade of Commis (working for a Parsi owned Company), I think the early influence on Parsi foods was from the East Indians

And the Goan Prawn or the Fish is never a part of the Parsi fare, as Vindaloo is.

I wonder why Sorpotel never became a part of Parsi foods then, if Vindaloo was a Goan influence, some Parsi did travel to Goa!!!

And I think the Parsis are more egg conscious than pork or any other meat.
bague25
Well, It's time for the in-house authentic East Indian to raise her hand. I may be wrong but I do go for the Goan (also validated by Bhicoo J. Manekshaw in her book) theory.

The reason being that the Parsis came to Bombay when the British came to Bombay to develop the cotton industry (earlier they were mostly in Gujarat - Surat, Valsad, etc).

Another important point is geography: Apart from a few settlements in South Bombay, most East Indian villages were concentrated in the North. Don’t forget Bombay at that time was still made up of several islands. This is because the Portugeuse used Vasai (Bassein as they called it and as it is still called by East Indians) and not Bombay as a port. It is again the British that developed Bombay as a port (as it was more suitable for cotton transport). The Portuguese mostly traded spices and teak (the teak forests were near Vasai).

The Parsi settlements in Bombay are mostly in South Bombay (and around the cotton mills areas) and so there was not much interaction (on the contrary a certain amount of non-founded suspicion) between the two communities.

Coming back to the vindaloo, while we do make the dish, it is less of a East Indian signature dish than a Goan one. I know my family will any day prefer a Bafat or a Khudi to a vindaloo!

Ofcourse you might find some historical proof and I may be completely wrong laugh.gif

Bague
bague25
QUOTE (indiachef @ Dec 2 2004, 05:02 AM)

Goans did move to Bombay later and to distinguish from the other Christians, the Bombay Christians called themselves the East Indians.

I've already said this in another forum in this site/
**************************************************
What are East Indians?
I'll try to be brief - Bombay Christians as said earlier but some more history...

When Bombay became English (given as dowry to Charles VII (I think) when he married Catherine de Braganza of Portugal), the local Christians asked to be named as East Indians (after the East India Company) to avoid persecution.

It’s unfortunately nothing to do with distinguishing ourselves from Goan or any other Christian Community.

*****************************************************

Please don't take this personaly Indiachef! It's my lifelong story explaining this to others (even here in Europe) smile.gif
Sue Darlow
QUOTE
And the Goan Prawn or the Fish is never a part of the Parsi fare, as Vindaloo is.


Exhibit #1

There are no less than *SEVEN* different recipes in the chapter on 'Fish' for Goa Curry in Bhichoo Manekshaw's book "Parsi Food and Customs".

Why would that be? rolleyes.gif

Sue

Edited to change 'Paris' to 'Parsi'! That's a common mistroke on my keyboard, along with 'Inida' for 'India' and others...
arnab
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Dec 2 2004, 02:25 PM)
There are no less than *SEVEN* different recipes in the chapter on 'Fish' for Goa Curry in Bhichoo Manekshaw's book "Paris Food and Customs".

they eat goa style fish curry in paris? *ducking*
bague25
Good you're ducking....

You see my French connections really show... laugh.gif

I did make this mistake too but edited before posting...
indiachef
QUOTE (bague25 @ Dec 2 2004, 01:16 PM)

Please don't take this personaly Indiachef! It's my lifelong story explaining this to others (even here in Europe) smile.gif

No I won't

But actually your lifelong efforts have been to explain the difference between East Indians and Indians in Europe

And the Indians from Guyana for that matter are aka East Indians, and nobody has taken efforts here
indiachef
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Dec 3 2004, 02:55 AM)
There are no less than *SEVEN* different recipes in the chapter on 'Fish' for Goa Curry in Bhichoo Manekshaw's book "Parsi Food and Customs".

Why would that be?  rolleyes.gif

Sue


Agreed, but why is it so called as Goa Fish and Goa Prawn

And somewhere in this forum do peeaza/do piaza had quite an interesting story from a cookbook about onions used twice or something to that effect, where it should actually mean Meat cooked with Vegetables

Which of these cookbooks carry fiction and which facts is something hard to tell

Although I cannot not agree with Bague25, that Vindaloo is not a signature dish of the East Indians as Bafat is, being an in-house authentic East Indian, interestingly Bafat is found in both Goan and Parsi foods

The Portuguese connection is certainly in existence

And if Manekshaw's book is the last word on Parsi foods, so be it, I can still live with my opinion - for a fact



Sue Darlow
QUOTE
Agreed, but why is it so called as Goa Fish and Goa Prawn


Because the Goan cooks employed by many Parsis were able to prepare their own delicious versions of Goan Prawn and Fish curry, simple!

I talked with my half-sister last night. She grew up in a well-off Parsi household. The cook, Anton, was Goan, and her and my brother's ayahs were also Goan.

The recipe that I have for a quick'n easy Goan Prawn Curry recipe was passed to me via my sister from her good Parsi friend.

I remember my Aunt's Goan cook "Mausi" producing the most fantastic Goan prawn currys and beautiful baked custards.

Another of my aunts also employed a Goan woman as cook.

QUOTE
And if Manekshaw's book is the last word on Parsi foods, so be it, I can still live with my opinion - for a fact


I don't know who you would consider an authority on Parsi food - you have already dismissed Busybee, who in addition to being a humourist was also a food critic, and Bhichoo Manekshaw, who has written a fairly comprehensive book on Parsi food and contributed to the Time amd Talents Club recipe books. She studied at the Cordon Bleu School of Cookery, worked as a catering consultant for all kinds of prestigious institutions, like the Taj Hotel in Bombay, Raj Bhavan in Bangalore etc. She may not be a 'qualified' food historian, but I wonder who really is in India?

What are your arguments against what I am saying?

QUOTE
I wonder why Sorpotel never became a part of Parsi foods then, if Vindaloo was a Goan influence,


I guess because it is not possible or common for ALL the dishes in a particular cuisine to get borrowed by another! Just like when the British left India, why did they only carry away a handful of 'Indian' dishes with them, like kedgeree, mulligatawny soup, chutney and 'curry' with apples and raisins in them? Why didn't they also take away idlis, dosas, puran poli, malaga podi, upama, batata wada etc etc etc. (They would have had severe problems with being way over their baggage allowance!! Lol! biggrin.gif )

Indiachef, did you imply in one of your posts that you were East Indian?

Sue
bague25
This is the last comment I make on this topic since I'm not a "I want to have the last word" hunter.

Indiachef, you misquote me I did not say vindaloo is not a signature - I said it is "LESS" of a signature dish compared to the others I mention
Flexicographer
Bague,
What's a khudi?
bague25
I'll PM you a recipe... It's a meat curry with a special masala...
arnab
QUOTE (bague25 @ Dec 9 2004, 12:06 AM)
I'll PM you a recipe... It's a meat curry with a special masala...

arre--humse kaunsi galati hui hai? what is all this p.m shee-em?
bague25
OK Baba! Dis bledy men!

Now I cannot scan from book have to type and modify the recipe method rolleyes.gif
bague25

Khudi masala

Cinnamon 50g, cloves 25g, cardamom 25g, poppy seeds 25g, nutmeg 10g, aniseed 10g, star anise 1, lime seeds (yes no jokes, if unavailable used dried lime rind) 25g, saffron 1 g, sesame 25g, mace 5g, caraway 10g, hing 10g, methi 10g, tejpatta 10g, triphal 10g, black pepper 25g.

Sun or oven dry and powder.


Mutton khudi

1 kg mutton, ¼ copra, 3 onions sliced, 3 green chillis, 1” ginger, 3 cloves garlic, 1 tbsp masala, ½ tsp turmeric, 4 potatoes, 1 golf ball size tamarind (soaked in water and pulp extracted), 4tbsp oil/ghee, salt to taste

Chop meat into cubes and boil in pressure cooker. Roast copra, onions, chillis, ginger & garlic with a tsp of oil/ghee, cool and grind to a paste with water. Heat remaining oil/ghee. Fry masala with turmeric & masala pd. Add potatoes, meat salt and tamarind. Cook till potatoes are ready.

The same method can be used for any other meat.

Flexicographer
QUOTE (bague25 @ Dec 10 2004, 11:24 PM)
Khudi masala

Cinnamon 50g, cloves 25g, cardamom 25g, poppy seeds 25g, nutmeg 10g, aniseed 10g, star anise 1, lime seeds (yes no jokes, if unavailable used dried lime rind) 25g, saffron 1 g, sesame 25g, mace 5g, caraway 10g, hing 10g, methi 10g, tejpatta 10g, triphal 10g, black pepper 25g.

Sun or oven dry and powder.


Mutton khudi

1 kg mutton, ¼ copra, 3 onions sliced, 3 green chillis, 1” ginger, 3 cloves garlic, 1 tbsp masala, ½ tsp turmeric, 4 potatoes, 1 golf ball size tamarind (soaked in water and pulp extracted), 4tbsp oil/ghee, salt to taste

Chop meat into cubes and boil in pressure cooker. Roast copra, onions, chillis, ginger & garlic with a tsp of oil/ghee, cool and grind to a paste with water. Heat remaining oil/ghee. Fry masala with turmeric & masala pd. Add potatoes, meat salt and tamarind. Cook till potatoes are ready.

The same method can be used for any other meat.


Holy Moile, this sounds like mighty powerful stuff, would it be available anywhere?

Or I have to make it ?( Khudi banana padega!) laugh.gif
arnab
QUOTE (Flexicographer @ Dec 10 2004, 03:53 PM)
Holy Moile, this sounds like mighty powerful stuff, would it be available anywhere?

Or I have to make it ?( Khudi banana padega!) laugh.gif

i don't know if khudi banana will be tasty...

but yes, this sounds like a major operation. especially considering when i ask my local desi store-owner about triphal he insists on trying to sell me some sort of herbal laxative. bague, i am afraid there is no help for it--you're going to have make batches for all of us and freeze and mail 'em!
gautam
Flex,

With two terrible puns in a row, i am afraid you have blown your cover! Where was i, thinking of you as a deep mole strategically placed in the heart of the Information mecca of tomorrow!
bague25
MUMMY I NEED KHUDI MASALA ...HELP! laugh.gif
Flexicographer
QUOTE (gautam @ Dec 11 2004, 06:31 AM)
Flex,

With two terrible puns in a row, i am afraid you have blown your cover! Where was i, thinking of you as a deep mole strategically placed in the heart of the Information mecca of tomorrow!

Er ...umm...Gola boshe gacche. blink.gif
indiachef
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Dec 8 2004, 12:49 PM)


What are your arguments against what I am saying?


Indiachef, did you imply in one of your posts that you were East Indian?

Sue

No arguments - I just do not agree
And as for Behram Contractor - with all due respects to him - he was one of the most readable columnists Bombay people had for food matters - but that does not mean he's a food critic
And for B Manekshaw - I haven't read her - but wondering why would Taj need a consultant?

Was I an East Indian - I guess we all are - aka Indians
indiachef
QUOTE (bague25 @ Dec 8 2004, 06:28 PM)
This is the last comment I make on this topic since I'm not a "I want to have the last word" hunter.

Indiachef, you misquote me I did not say vindaloo is not a signature - I said it is "LESS" of a signature dish compared to the others I mention

Aplogies Bague
Nonethe LESS it is a signature dish of the EIndians!!

BTW - Could you tell us more about "bottle(d) masala" and its uses
Rushina
Baque25's recipe for East Indian Bottle masalla is hereBaque, I do hope we get to hear more about E Indian food from you on this thread. smile.gif

Rushina

edited to correct link
Rushina

Just found this, could our parsi freinds vet it for authenticity of recipes and I will then add id to websites of worth list.

http://www.parsicommunity.com/ParsiCuisine...les/pickles.htm

Rushina
Sue Darlow
QUOTE (Rushina @ Dec 31 2004, 11:07 AM)
Just found this, could our parsi freinds vet it for authenticity of recipes and I will then add id to websites of worth list.

http://www.parsicommunity.com/ParsiCuisine...les/pickles.htm

Rushina

Rushina

It is a site where people are invited to send in their recipes, so they will be of all kinds and of all standards. The best thing is to just try out a couple of recipes that sound appealing!

Sue
Sue Darlow
OK, so I thought I would post a few Parsi recipes as and when I get the time.

I will start with something very simple, which most of you will find very similar to egg burji, the Parsi version of which is called akuri. Different people have their favourite recipes like with everything else, and some are far more elaborate than mine, with garlic, ginger, haldi, dried fruits and other masalas too. But this version, which used to be made by my cook when I was growing up, is beautifully and deceptively simple. It makes a great light dinner served on toast or a brunch item. And of course it is quick to prepare.

Akuri
(to serve two)

4 eggs
Approximately 5 tablespoons of milk
Half a medium onion, chopped finely
2 green chillies, chopped finely
2 tablespoons of finely chopped green coriander
Approximately half a teaspoon of salt, or to taste
2 tablespoons of oil - or as little as possible to cook the onion in

Use a small (preferably non-stick) pan and start to gently sauté the onions and chillies in the oil.

user posted image

Meanwhile, crack the eggs into a bowl and vigorously beat them with a fork until the egg whites and yolks are blended completely. Then add the salt, half the coriander and the milk and keep ready.

user posted image

When the onion is just turning slightly golden, but not dark, add the other half of the coriander to the pan and after a minute add the egg mixture. If you have had to wait a while before adding the eggs, give them a last minute mix, in case they have "settled". Keep the flame quite low.

user posted image

Using a wooden spoon, keep drawing it along the bottom of the pan across the diameter of the pan, forming clumps of firm "curds". Don't merely stir and don't move the spoon too vigorously or have the flame high. You don't want a homogenous mess or the egg to separate into curds and water (ugh!)

user posted image

When almost all the egg has firmed up and there's a tiny amount of liquid left, turn off the heat and let the eggs cook while stirring gently in the remaining heat for half a minute to dry out, but do NOT let it get too dry and overcooked. Serve immediately.

user posted image

The final result should be very soft, smooth curds of scrambled egg flavoured with the coriander, chillies and onion. I don't know anyone who hasn't loved it.



Matilda
Thanks Sue for this simple but extremely delicious recipe & even more beautiful step by step photos....what a work of art!!

I remember 'akuri' from our family holiday back in the mid 1960s at 'Matheran' , where they served us this at the holiday house where breakfast was all inclusive. My mum used to cook it at home in Bombay quite often after this. Haven't eaten it in a long time tho'. Must go buy those free-range eggs tomorrow and make some!

BTW how did you get the black background in the last shot? Did you use a black plate?
arnab
this is basically what we call anda-bhujiya. had no idea it had parsi antecedents. sometimes my mother would add chopped-up tomatoes as well.
Sue Darlow
Hi Matilda

Where did your family stay in Matheran, do you remember? And yes, I have a black plate that I photograph a lot of food on, it avoids too many visual distractions.

Arnab,

I don't claim that egg burji/anda-bhujiya has Parsi antecedents, I have no idea about that. But the Parsis do have a great fondness for eggs and hence there are quite a number of recipes that use eggs in the Parsi culinary repertoire.

In my opinion, the way the eggs are cooked has more bearing on the deliciousness of the end result than the number and type of ingredients added. Getting a smooth creamy curd, rather than one that has split - with water running out, or overcooked dry stuff, or one where the yolk and whites are still separate in congealed lumps, is most important.

And in this version, you get the clear taste of just a few ingredients, rather than a generalised "masala" effect.

Sue
Rumali Roti
Thanks for that Akuri recipe, Sue, very timely wink.gif

Poster Vikdoc applauded the akuri served at the Willingdon Club a while back. I've eaten it there, and would have to agree theirs is the best. They add deseeded tomatoes, however. Try it like that some time!
Sue Darlow
Like I said, roshna, there are plenty more varieties of akuri, and I have had many of them, but I like our Fakir's best! biggrin.gif
mallige
Thankyou Sue for the akuri recipe. Made it for brunch and it was very good thumbup.gif

Mamallan
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Dec 1 2004, 06:56 PM)
QUOTE
And I do not think Goan cooks made any impact on the Parsis -


Uh? I know so many Parsis who employ/employed Goan cooks, mostly women, not men (the cooks, that is!), and they turned out delicious Goan prawn cury, fish curry and vindaloo. Is that so strange?


this would explain why for the long time i thought of patrani mach as a goan delicacy!
Matilda
QUOTE (Sue Darlow @ Feb 19 2006, 07:05 PM)
Hi Matilda

Where did your family stay in Matheran, do you remember?  Sue




As this was over 40 years ago I can't remember any names of the place/street we stayed at , (but i remember our journey there from Neral (?) , with 2 other families, in a dear little steam engine train, up a steep windy mountain! )
I'll ask my mum next time I see her....by the way do you happen to have any memories of/ connection to Matheran yourself?

At the holiday house/ lodge we stayed at, my family were given a large room w. beds. & an attached bathroom which had a back door, which we were asked to leave open for cleaning purposes, if we happened to go out for the day. On the 1st day some local monkeys accidentally gained access to our room via this rear door and created havoc in our room & on our beds!!! As kids, we thought this was hilarious! I recall the fun we had going horse riding.

I think my mum used to add tomato to our akuri. I'm going to try it both with & without....
Pratibha
Sue, I didn't know it had a name and it is a Parasi recipe. I have been scrambling eggs this way for a long time now. Good to know.
arnab
QUOTE (Pratibha @ Feb 19 2006, 08:58 PM)
Sue, I didn't know it had a name and it is a Parasi recipe. I have been scrambling eggs this way for a long time now. Good to know.

next up in sue's parsi food series: boiled eggs, and toast.



















just teasing sue...don't hurt me....
loislane
Made Sue's akoori today. It looked exactly like it does in her pictures. Nicely spiced between a bhurji and plain scrambled eggs. What struck me was that the same ingredients in the same proportions would make a very good desi omelet too, which has been discussed somewhere on some other thread.


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